Why BDSM should not be seen as acceptable by mainstream culture
November 10, 2012 at 5:46 am 14 comments
When can you call yourself a good person? The usual secular answer goes something like this:
I don’t hurt anyone. I do not want to hurt anyone. So I am a good person.
I previously argued that this approach to moral goodness is less than adequate, but that is not today’s topic. Point is, someone who does not want to hurt others – physically, emotionally, economically, etc. is regarded, by almost any set of values including the purely secular, as superior to those who want to hurt others. And that simple baseline idea of morality: “Do not hurt others” is a fairly good start for a moral conscience. Per extention, hurting others on purpose is the baseline standard of moral evil.
Where does that put people who like sadistic or masochistic acts? (Warning: Violent sexual graphics in link.)
Are people who condone this as moral as those who oppose this?
A sadist hurts people. A masochist finds sadistic behavior – hurting others – acceptable, something (s)he encourages and defends in a partner. This hurting could be physical pain, or it could be humiliation , insults and degradation.
The BDSM community may say that their standard of morality is “safe, sane and consensual.” In my opinion, that is automatically a lower standard than not hurting people:
> To safely hurt people – in other words, hurting them emotionally and physically, but not to such an extent that their life or health is in danger – is a lower moral standard than not hurting them. It is also nonsensical. Part of the definition of “safe” is “free from hurt” and “protected from being hurt”. As such, anything or anyone that causes hurt is, per definition, unsafe.
> To sanely hurt people – hurting them while staying in control of your emotions, while doing nothing that the BDSM community will regard as crazy, is a lower standard than not wanting to hurt people. It is also a contradiction in terms. Mental health professionals regards both sexual sadism and sexual masochism as mental disorders.*
> To hurt consensual people is a lower standard of morality than not hurting people. A similar example will be selling cocaine only to consensual buyers – of course, that is morally worse than not selling cocaine at all. But the similarities goes further: Drug sellers not only want to sell to consensual people, but they do what they can to enslave their customers further, so they can sell more drugs and make more money. Likewise, sadists encourage their consensual submissives to consent to worse pain and worse humiliation than before. And both drug sellers and the BDSM community push their product because they want to enslave new customers.
Anyone who is involved in BDSM (I am not speaking about the ropes and blindfolds part here, but pain and humiliation) have rejected the simplest basic human value of “it is wrong to hurt people.” Can you reject this value, and still be a good and trustworthy member of society, safe for those around you to be with? I do not think so. I believe this will spill over into the other human interactions of the BDSM participant.
I do not expect to make any BDSM participant en ex-participant with this post. I want to tell “vanilla” (non-BDSM) people to not regard these people as normal people who just have different sexual needs. This is not in the same class as, say, a fetish for high heels or even a preference for your own gender. This is a direct rejection of the most basic value of how to treat humans. To the degree you start to find sadism/ masochism in pornography and literature acceptable, you reject the most basic moral standard that is written on normal human hearts. To the degree you watch that kind of pornography, you encourage and even fund cruelty.
(Edit, added about 12 hours after this post first appearing: I should have asked this before, but please do not link to BDSM/DD web sites or blogs in the comments, including the place where you optionally fill in your blog name after your name and e-mail address. Thank you)
Those interested in this blog entry may also be interested in:
Why consent is not enough in BDSM
——————
Note*
The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders regards both sexual masochism and sexual sadism as mental disorders. Because of, among others, pressure from the BDSM community, consensual masochism or sadism is only regarded as a mental disorder nowadays if it causes “clinically significant distress or impairment in important areas of functioning.” It appears humiliation and degradation is prone to cause significant distress for the person subjected to it, and I expressed the opinion that letting go of the “hurting people is wrong” standard will dause impairment in social functioning.
Even when all sadism and masochism was considered mental disorders, BDSM people already called “sane” one of their values.
Entry filed under: values. Tags: BDSM, morality, safe sane consensual.
1.
BondageGirl | November 10, 2012 at 7:03 am
Hello, I found your post quite intriguing. But, as someone who is apart of the BDSM community (including the SM part) I don’t exactly agree with everything you have written. I understand it is /your/ blog and you have all access to delete this comment. But, I am a normal person. Yes, I’m a masochist. But, that doesn’t mean I think hurting others is okay. My Dom/bf would never hurt a fly. My friends adore him and think he is the nicest person and the best fit for me. If he were to ever hurt someone I’d be downright angry. However, he does like to induce pain on me when we’re in a scene. He goes to my limit though and if it’s too much it stops. Instantly. He hates seeing me in pain from my shoulder or ankle problems. But, seeing me wince when I sit because the bruises on my butt sting makes him smile. It makes me smile. I trust him more than I have ever trusted anyone else. Our relationship was built on trust and continues to grow on that.
Not all of my friends know about this part of my life. Only a select few. But, the ones that do just want me to be careful and if it goes too far my Dom would be the one taking care of me. He would be the one scared for me. He would NEVER encourage me to take more pain if I couldn’t handle it. He would never convince me that more pain would be okay for me.
I will say BDSM is my lifestyle choice. I’m very happy. According to those I interact with such as friends and family — I’m the happiest I’ve ever been — which is true. I know my thoughts throughout this comment are scattered…but I can honestly say if you were to run into me on the street you wouldn’t even know I was a masochist. You wouldn’t know he was sadistic.
I’m sorry to intrude on your blog/opinions but I think it would be interesting to discuss one day. Have a fabulous day. =)
2.
Retha | November 10, 2012 at 1:23 pm
Thank you for your pleasant attitude. I notice you say:
but also:
”
You can probably see why I cannot believe the first part of this quote.
BTW, would you condone something like the two pictures with this post? My experience is that many of the submissives (I won’t try to say you, I don’t know you) have an history of bulimia or self-cutting and let someone else do the destroying now. Also that they accept more pain/ humilation the longer they indulge in their kink, that it is a dangerous downward spiral as I describe in another post about three posts before this one.
I also find that submissives are very quick to defend the dominants (you just did), but I never saw dominants defend the submissives much on the Internet. Despite that, submissives claim the causer of pain, the one who does not defend, is the “protector”????
3.
BondageGirl | November 10, 2012 at 2:58 pm
I would not condone /extreme/ knife play such as cutting someone as in the first picture. But, I personally haven’t had a history with these things that would destroy me besides my lack of sleep and lack of eating. He actually brings me up more than anyone. He tells me I’m beautiful every day and is helping my self-image as well. I’m the happiest I’ve ever been (as I’ve stated before).
I did read your other post. Quite interesting again.
I am quick to defend him because he’s also my boyfriend and someone whom I love and care for deeply. He also feels the same for me and has protected me and defended me in instances where I was directly threatened or talked about in person.
I personally like pain. He wouldn’t hurt a fly but on the same term he doesn’t truly hurt me. I suppose it’s the chemicals in my brain. There are instances where the endorphins are released and it causes me much pleasure. I can’t explain it. I have looked into the the diagnostics of sadomasochism being a mental illness before in general study. I don’t consider it a mental illness from personal experiences.
Also, reading your last comment..I’ll define my consensual in an example. I’m fine with receiving beltings (as punishment in one situation and for pleasure in a different. There’s different degrees of beltings). I’m fine with knife play. Dean believes in female beauty and would never leave permanent damage. It’d kill him inside. However, I have agreed to a slight power exchange. Even when we’re out in public I like him to use a dominant role with me but the only parts of my life he has any power over is my sex life and my health. I have rules set for me. If I break them I’m punished. But, that is more of the BD aspect.
I’m sort of rambling. I’m sorry for that. I’m scattered brained. An overall factor for me is that this relationship is bringing me up. I’m not going in a downward spiral at all. =)
4.
Retha | November 10, 2012 at 4:02 pm
It seems we agree that hurting others is a bad thing. It is just that we define hurt differently.
Also remember that in this post I was, without aiming it specifically at the two of you, as critical of submissives as of dominants. Yet only one of you care enough here to be defending the other. That tells me as much about him as his liking to induce pain. His one-sided punishment of you (if some beltings are punishment, he does hurt you in ways you do not enjoy!) while his wrongs are, I bet, not physically punished by anyone, tell me even more. A practice by which only the wrongs of some people are punished is called injustice. People like me find injustice immoral. And injustice is condoned by both of you.
I believe you are happy at the moment, but you already know my opinion of your – and his – system of values.
5.
beccyjo | November 10, 2012 at 2:16 pm
Interesting post. I was able to read it fairly dispassionately, given that yes, I am a submissive, but no I’m not a masochist. I can’t disagree with your basic premise, on the moral ‘goodness’ of not hurting others. Neither humiliation or pain are part of my D/s relationship, but having said that I know there are people for whom it is not only a desired element, but something both parties need to feel whole.
I think it goes beyond consent. taking this quote “A masochist finds sadistic behavior – hurting others – acceptable” My understanding is that a masochist needs the pain provided by the sadist. It might be for a variety of reasons, the endorphin rush, to release pressure & tension, to help them ‘feel’ where previous emotional &/or physical trauma has left them unable to. So as such it goes beyond finding the behaviour acceptable, to finding it desirable.
There are many aspects of BDSM that I find personally abhorrent, however I do respect the rights of those who want/need/enjoy those activities to do so. As long as they are consenting adults, what they do together is ok with me.
Do I want to whipped bloody or have ‘pig face’ written across my chest, god no, absolutely not! Do I think those that do (either the one wielding the whip or the one on the receiving end) are any less ‘good’ people than me, no I don’t. Neither do I think they are any less likely to be good, trustworthy members of society. There are good & bad people in all walks of life, every sexual kink, every moral or religious group.
6.
Retha | November 10, 2012 at 2:43 pm
I know masochists find the pain desirable. I believe “needing” pain is like needing drugs – the “need” is a problem in itself.
I see you call those who dominate the 2 women in the picture no less “good” than you. Are you even sure they are doing it to consensual victims? If you think of them as good people, can you give us a standard of morality by which they are good? (For example “I don’t hurt people and disapprove of it when someone else hurt people” is a moral standard.)
7.
beccyjo | November 10, 2012 at 4:43 pm
“I believe “needing” pain is like needing drugs – the “need” is a problem in itself.”
I don’t think I can, with good conscience, judge anyone whose shoes I haven’t walked in. Who am I, not needing pain myself, to judge someone who does? I have no idea how that pain feels to them, and what they get from it. Just as I don’t judge those who believe in God for example, and feel a need to practise their religion. I might think their beliefs are ridiculous, but I don’t consider them less than intelligent for holding them. Nor do I believe their need for prayer or to believe in a higher power is a problem.
Similarly somebody who is not submissive will likely judge my need to submit to my Dominant. They won’t see the pleasure, fulfilment & peace I receive from doing it.. they will just see me on my knees at my Dom’s feet & consider me perhaps debased, or less than he for it. I accept that some will judge my lifestyle choice, but it doesn’t make it morally reprehensible.
As for the 2 pictures, of course I have no idea if they show consensual activity. I believe my comments were fairly clear that I was defending the rights of consenting adults to indulge in whatever activity gives them both pleasure. If those images are of non consensual activity they are absolutely abusive, and horrific. However if the sub/bottom/masochist in them has asked for, consented to, and enjoyed the experience, well all power to her. It might not be my thing, but if it’s her thing I don’t judge her for it.
I think the use of the word “victims” in the question is quite telling. You are, as is your right (especially as it is your blog
), quite horrified by the idea of “suffering” something like that. Others won’t be horrified at all. The psychology of human needs is a complex thing, and I don’t think any 2 of us, even in a minority lifestyle, who identify with the same role, will need & want exactly the same things.
As for a standard of morality by which I think a (again – for emphasis) consenting sadist/masochist couple are good. They are choosing to indulge in activity which they both need/want/desire. I can’t see a way to make that immoral, though I’m not sure how to phrase it into a more generalised moral standard. By the very nature of these relationships, they won’t be able to be defined by generalisations. they’re a minority.
They aren’t demanding we all join in, or give them a pat on the back. They likely know that their lifestyle will never be acceptable to the mainstream, just as mine in a loving D/s relationship probably won’t be either. But it is our choice, and I will defend the right of anyone to make those choices.
8.
Retha | November 11, 2012 at 1:31 pm
Your first reaction, without knowing if the photos was consensual or not, was to say someone who wants this, who wields the whip, is no less likely to be a good, trustworthy member of society. As such, you seemingly assumed the one who caused pain did no wrong here. If you see an expression like that on the face of your child, an adult family member or stranger, would you automatically assume they are happy, and that everything that made them cry that way was things they wanted to happen? If you see someone who have obviously been painfully tortured on purpose by their fresh wounds, would you simply walk past and think, “(s)he wanted it?”
By my thinking, the first assumption I should have when seeing a body or face like that is the possibility of unhappiness, the possibility that she may need help. You apparently first assume a body/ face like that belongs to a happy woman whom you should not try to help, that you can just walk past and defend whoever caused her to look like this.
When neither of us know if this is or isn’t consensual, are these really morally equivalent:
a)wanting to help the one who is in pain and crying, and b) wanting to defend the one who caused the pain?
Note: You do realise that people with a lower standard of values, those who do morally reprehensible things, will not see themselves as morally reprehensible? That is the very nature of a low standard of morals.
————
Beccyjo, you say humiliation is not part of your D/s relationship. You also say we will see you on your knees before your dom. Humiliation is to be lowered and treated as a lesser. That is indeed what being on your knees before someone is about. (Either that, or manipulative pleading for something. But in the latter case, the kneeling body will be saying please and making a request the whole time, not taking rough treatment.) Of course I see degradation – because IT IS THERE TO SEE. Even if you enjoy it, you are still lowered. It harms your personhood and tells you to act like a lower person.
Do minorities not have to live up to moral standards other people live up to? Can we not accuse a Greek of rape in my country, South Africa, as Greeks are a very small minority? Can stamp collectors get away with being racists, as stamp collectors are a minority? How many minorities, do you propose, can leave the “hurting others on purpose is wrong” standard?
9.
Retha | November 10, 2012 at 2:35 pm
This extra thought is not specifically aimed at Bondagegirl or Beccyjo: As shown in my post, BDSM people call it safe – but don’t use safe the way the rest of us mean it. They call it sane – but don’t use sane the way the rest of us mean it. Would it be fair to wonder how much of BDSM is consensual, the way we understand consensual?
10.
Retha | November 10, 2012 at 5:04 pm
I left the following comment to Bondagegirl on her blog. It pertains to something she wrote there, words her master wanted her to learn:
“He wanted you to learn the mantra: I am the slave and property of Master. My only purpose for living is to please Him. Every breath I take is granted by Him.”
That would mean:
a) He does not give you the right to have any dreams (purpose) outside the relationship. (For example, you dream of adopting children according to your blog – you will abondon such a highly ethical dream to make a difference, and do nothing except please him.) That is absolutely one of the marks of an abuser!
b) He wants you to believe he has the right to kill you, if you only breathe because he grants it. You may be happy at the moment, but I fear that he will get a lot worse if you move in together.
http://www.rhiannon3.net/cs/signs.html“
11.
adominant | November 12, 2012 at 10:01 am
Oh what situation we have here, so many right/wrong arguments, let me add my take on it all.
First the author has a few errors i feel suporting her view. To liken the S/M participants to a drug dealer selling cocaine is a floored exapmle to use. By definition the S/M participants practice in order to derive sexual pleasure and satisfaction. Now i dont know many drug dealers myself but im pretty sure their motivation is more profit based, or to clear debts than any sexual motive.
Also the views of those who posted replies, as well as my own are based on the behaviour being consensual between the two participants and that anything other would be breaking the law of the land and therefore condemned. With reference to the pictures, the author seems to switch between ‘are they consunsual’ or not, in order to suit differing arguments. Let me re state, all these reply posts are based on consent, if there is not consent then everyone involved now in this post will condemn the behaviour without question.
While on the subject of consent let me expand a little. Im not sure on the authors level of experience of the BDSM lifestyle sceen, perhaps she could explain in greater detail and thus help us understand a little more of where she is coming from. In the majotity of cases, mine included, the level of comunication between the two participants in a D/s relationship or sceen is of the highest level, infinitly more detailed than any ‘outside’ relationship. As such before any ‘action’ or activity takes place, there is a detailed comunication between the couple to understand what will happen and to define most clearly any limits to be set and when the action would have to stop, including an agreement of safe word/s or actions that will stop the activity at once.
A ‘normal’ relationship in the outside world is full of misunderstandings, lies and even cheating everywhere you look, in the D/s world this is reduced greatly by the level of openess and trust that is built and developed between the practicing couple. As such it is in fact a much more secure environment in which to hold a relationship.
Finally, the world within BDSM is vast, with millions of variations, what the author has picked up on is a tiny minority at the extreme end. Like so many people i feel she uses this to darken the name of everyone involved in the whole BDSM arena where in fact, the majority are of a far higher moral standard than most in the ‘outside’ world.
I will leave it at that for the moment and of course would love to expand on any detail should the author wish to reply. As you will see from the signature, this is a Dominants view, one who is in the mid stream of the D/s lifestyle and one who enjoys a very open, trusting and loving relationship with his submissive chosing to be at his feet, WILLINGLY.
12.
Retha | November 12, 2012 at 9:26 pm
I agree that money and sex are not the same motive. Still, a slave of drugs or of a master both do it because they initially found pleausure in it, and both could suffer damage because of the enslavement, and both do it (take drugs/ accept pain) willingly. Some in the scene even say they get addicted to the rush of pain.
You call BDSM relationships honest. Here is what I saw, as we may have seen different things: BDSM people are not only dishonest about safety and sanity (by the very meanings of the words safe and sane, pain is not safe, and BDSM arguably not sane), they also lie to themselves about whether causing pain equals hurting, and tell less than the truth to the world about their relationships. For example, the 18-year-old BondageGirl writes in these comments that she consents because the pain gives her pleasure. A bit later, she writes that she also gets punishment beltings from her boyfriend, 20 years older than she, pain which do not give her pleasure. Her first statement to me was a half-truth, the half that can be propaganda for the vanilla world.
From a specifi relationship to the general rule: Dominants also enjoy punishment beatings that submissives does not, which do not make it about mutual enjoyment. They enjoy hurting people who are not enjoying the pain.
As for communication, here is a scene BondageGirl describes on her blog, Youlikewhat:
She had to learn a set of words that ends with “…Every breath I take is granted by Him.” She then had to kneel before her master and recite the words. Even though she learned the words, she was so terrified that she forgot them.
He reacted by giving her a punishment beating, her second punishment beating of the day. He never even asked why she forgot the words before punishing. Her fear, and his beating without asking why she forgot, gives the impression not of good communication with openness and honesty, only cruelty.
Another clue about the values of the BDSM world is that it is very easy to find photos like those above on BDSM blogs. (If I could take a guess, the crying woman probably consented to make a pornographic film for money. According to vocal ex-porn actresses, most women who do that either stop before their third film because the pornography industry – BDSM or not – is too degrading; or get addicted to drugs to cope with the degradation. I find this scenario tragic, even with the consent of the porn actress.
The woman with the bloody whip marks was probably kidnapped, beaten and photographed against her will, so the abusers could make money from selling images to those who like to see someone in pain.)
BDSM fans will gladly reblog photos of what could likely be degraded porn actresses who use drugs to cope, or non-consensual cruelty (I got these from BDSM tumblr blogs) – and say they approve of BDSM because it makes the participants happy.
Do you see why I cannot find the scene honest or caring?
13.
adominant | November 13, 2012 at 9:25 am
Retha, thank you for your reply and i have to say that i find a lot of your ‘reasoning’ no more that an outsiders stereyotypical view of the BDSM world. Also using single examples to cast general dispersions where infact you need multiple examples to give your argument any credence.(Inserted by Retha: If we need multiple examples to give credence to a view, I gave more credence to mine than you to yours. But there are limits to how many examples fit into one blog post and comments, so I don’t blame you for giving very little example of the honesty you assert.) With respect to the quote you use, Bondage girl and her partner are 18 and 20 (Inserted by Retha: Not 18 and 20, but 18, and 20 years older than she is. There is a fast difference.), i believe, hardly in the mainstream of the BDSM scene. You failed to address my point on your direct experience with a D/s relationship, either by choice, or you missed the point, i can only assume you have little experience unless you tell me otherwise.(Inserted by Retha: By choice. I blog under my own name, not anonymously. Your assumptions is your own business.)
Still you liken the drug dealer to the S/M participant. IT IS NOT at all similar. S/M participants get sexual pleasure either inflicting pain or recieving pain. The drug dealer is money motivated. Any pain that results, is in no way connected to direct physical pain on the body inflicted by another. The dealer is probably miles away at the time the drugs are used. Your analogy holds no weight. (Inserted by Retha: You got the right to that opinion. I mentioned the similarities, and you did not deny them, but mentioned the differences. Perhaps you see only differences because you cannot think from your partner’s POV – if I think of it somewhat similar to drug abuse, you think of yourself compared to a dealer, not your partner to an addict. Being beaten and humiliated at the feet of someone who cannot see you POV, who cannot feel your pain in his heart…?)
I was thinking, and would like your opinion on a much better analogy i see as more relevant and something i have seen at various times over the years. Take the small child, forced by parents to sing in church, or perform a reading, perhaps to perform in front of the school at an open day. Clearly terrified, feeling scared and humiliated infront of their friends. Despite this feeling, the parents continue to force the child to perform, threatening to remove treats, or worse still, saying that mummy/daddy will not love them any more. Is this form of ‘tourture’ by the parent not just as bad, and morally wrong as there person/s you keep refering too. Bare in mind, the child has not given consent, as in the S/M relationship and is in fact under the age of consent, something else that does not happen in the BDSM world, within the law of the land.(Inserted by Retha: We agree. It is bad. As bad? Worse? Depends on the case.)
Why do the parents do it, for their own self gratification, and to be one up on the people living next door, not a thought of the child, (Inserted by Retha: Do you like it when assumptions are made about people’s motives?)now tell me who has the lower moral standards.
Yet again you make wild assumptions about the photographs, example:
“If I could take a guess, the crying woman probably consented to make a pornographic film for money”
“The woman with the bloody whip marks was probably kidnapped, beaten and photographed against her will”
This is utterly ridiculous, (Inserted by Retha: Most pornographic material of high quality is made for money. And non-consensual material certainly exist among very cruel pornography. Even if these photos are not what I imagine, I am wise enough to know much else is.) what gives anyone the right to make assumptions based on nothing more that an obscure view of a subject they have no knowledge about (Inserted by Retha: You are making assumptions about me and what I know, while stating assumptions is bad…)and then cast accusations across a whole area of society. From your initial reasoned argument, be it right or wrong, you are now making yourself look foolish by stating things with no knowledge or basis for argument.
I know you and I will never share the same view, and i would ask you to kindly let this ‘idea’ you have in your head go. Most of what you have mentioned is fully consensual between two adult people in the privacy of their own environment, (Inserted by Retha: None of what I mentioned stays in private. It is all over the Internet! The Internet is not private.) causing offence to no one who doesnt want to get involved. (Inserted by Retha: Erm, as people like me are offended, that is not true.) The examples you use and quote are from a tiny minority based at the extreme edge of what is a vast array of lifestyle choices and as such should not be seen as ‘general’ (Inserted by Retha: Is it really only a tiny minority that will give punishment beatings the submissive do not enjoy? Or watch porn that the participants did not enjoy making, even though they were paid? Do only a tiny minority call some painful things safe?)
I dont intend to get further involved with you, or any more discussion, unfortunately your mis informed views are typical of so many who lack the interlect or knowlege to understand what really happens behind those dark BDSM doors.
I do have a library of information both in hard and electronic form that i would be pleased to share with you in a way that could at leased give you informed knowledge on the subject and enable you understand more. Informed opinion rather than wild accusation will im sure gather you a much more receptive audience.(Inserted by Retha: Is your info from BDSM people, or from those with nothing to defend and a proven track record of caring about people’s welfare?) Unfortunately i feel you have your opinions set and are unlikely so seek out further information.
I wish you well and hope you find fulfillment in whatever lifestyle you choose…i certainly have. (Inserted by Retha: Thank you, I do. May you have the same, as long as you heal rather than hurt others.)
14.
Retha | November 25, 2012 at 8:07 pm
This man said in his first response:
Yet, when I replied, he called my view stereotypical and my examples too few, and did not expand on how redefining safety and arguably sanity, giving or recieving non-enjoyed (by the submissive) punishment beatings, or reblogging material that may be non-consensual, or consensual and still degrading to the porn actress (here is how ex-porn actresses and actors feel about making porn http://www.shelleylubben.com/category/articles-category/ex-porn-star-stories), falls in with a moral, don’t-hurt-others world view.
He chose, on 2012/11/13 9:25, to insult rather than provide real answers to perceptions, to call my real knowledge of what porn actresses generally feel doing their job “utterly ridiculous.”
I even asked, after his second reply, if any of his info on BDSM comes from non-BDSM people who care about others and therefore have nothing to lose when they report on what is good/ bad/ neutral in BDSM.
After I asked, there was roundabout a week to respond before this thread was closed. But he did not respond. I don’t think he know of any morally good (defined as wanting to heal, not hurt) non-BDSM people who find this lifestyle good. It is easy to assert, to someone who don’t know you “Our relationships with the women at our feet are open and honest, they communicate openly with us” , it is harder to answer questions.